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148615-so-dominion-and-exiles-page-6
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8 Content The irony about this is that I feel like Brightland's Rebellion is one of the cases where the Dominion was definitely in the wrong overall. I may not describe it in the words you choose such as abuser/victim, persecutor/persecuted, etc but I actually facepalm about that whole point in history. I can understand why the Dominion thought the Eldan were gods because they were pretty much on that level since they encountered them. It also didn't make sense to me why the Dominion pursued the Exiles for hundreds of years until I read about the Granok continually trying to get revenge. Though I don't think the Mordesh simply tried to flee (after the Exiles rescued them) from the Dominion either. Like the Granok, they very much wanted revenge. Maybe for a brief time, the Exile humans simply tried to flee but I don't think the Granok stopped trying to fight the Dominion after they joined with them. I would have most likely delivered this explanation if asked but I feel like you were more focused on the theory I was being intentionally vague to make the Dominion look better when I was just being vague because I didn't feel like typing a lengthy explanation (which was my bad, though my motivation is dwindling when the focus becomes me not using strong enough words to describe how bad the Dominion is). Even knowing that the Dominion was in the wrong for this particular event, I still think the center of the conflict is both sides wanting things to be done differently than what the other side wants. Not nice enough. Based on how long you've both been members, you've been playing over a year longer than Captainspire (correct me if I'm wrong). They haven't had as much time to ponder all this lore like you have. I feel like you are not being considerate of that and talking down to them (especially in the part I quoted). I agree with most of your points, but not the tone you are using. This is probably a terrible example since you disagree with Nazryn's opinions, but they managed to disagree with one of the things Captainspire said and managed to elaborate without attacking them. Since you edited your post to be nicer, I assume this wasn't your intention but it is still coming out that way. Edited January 14, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- How exactly were the Low-Born being persecuted? As far as the Lore goes, Jarec of House Azrion's Vigilant Declaration (which was the source of conflict) didn't contain anything about persecuting the Low Born. What the Decree established was the deification of the Eldan (not so different from Ancestor worship in Asia, or Hero worship in any other culture). The only actual social impact was that IF you had eldan genetics you could align with the Luminai houses (and thus benefit from their wealth and resources), and Luminai / Cassian breeding was limited to preserve Eldan lines. Now, understandably, the lowborn were not terribly pleased with this... but the situation is not at all different from India's Caste system (actually, it's less stringent, as Low Born CAN do virtually anything a High born can do if they work for it, An untouchable can't even touch a Brahmin in India). So, again I ask, where is the "persecution"? Social hierarchy? Yes, definitely. Is it fair? Probably not, but it's fundamentally an issue of concentration of wealth and influence, not oppression and persecution. Are there biases on both sides? Yep, and they are shown more readily on Nexus, far from the more civilized worlds of the Empire... But again, where is the persecution? Prejudice, bias, income inequality... these are all negative things, but we have them in all of our societies, they certainly aren't desirable, but they are far from "persecution". It was a small group of Low Born (understandably) who rioted over the decree, and got violent initially. The Dominion responded as many governments would, they cracked down (also violently) on the rioters. Sure, that's not ideal in the least, but the Brits did it in the Colonies, India does it today, as does Thailand and many nations... There is a balance between protecting innocent citizens from violent citizens and upholding citizens rights to violently demonstrate (which most places don't have.. even in America which no longer has sedition laws, violent protests get the riot police). I think Spider has the best conception of the rebellion here. The Dominion was (by our standards) in the wrong for violently neutralizing the riots and adopting a zero tolerance policy. But at the same time, the violent rioters are not wholly without blame. We all know the power of non-violent protests (see Ghandi and MLK), and the angry low born could have very well enacted positive social change through non-violent means... but they chose to start killing people instead. If we are going to judge the actions of an alien empire based on our own conceptions of good / bad, then we need to judge BOTH parties by them. If the Dominion is wrong for violently quelling violent protests (which I would say they were) then the violent protesters were ALSO wrong for violently rioting instead of using peaceful civil disobedience (which I would say they were). As for the Dominion continually pursuing the Exiles, think of the U.S. and Osama Bin Laden. We kept pursuing him for his terrorist attack on our country until we got him... The Dominion is thinking the same thing. Brightland killed tens to hundreds of thousands of innocent Citizens in his coup attempt... I'd be out for blood too. Though your point about the continued attacks on the Dominion (by the Granok AND the exile humans is also valid and certainly part of it). Also, I say this alot.. but the Eldan really were gods. Even before becoming the Drusentity (a literal dualistic monotheistic deity like in the Abrahamic faiths), they were ultra-powerful beings capable of healing all injury and disease, bringing the dead back to life, creating life itself, destroying and creating worlds, controlling the elements, weather, climate, geology, etc... In Japan they would be Kami in their own right even before ascending. Heck in Japan the emperor was considered a god, and he still is... Why is it so strange that the Dominion consider legitimately godly beings as gods? Edited January 14, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Chronicle houses weren't a religion persay (more of something part of their culture before the Eldan) but the Ancestral Decree did result in them being torn down and replaced by Vigilant Churches. It may not be religious persecution but I do see it as a sort of cultural persecution (Brightland's Rebellion, Part 2, first paragraph). I like to think that they've learned their lesson about this since as we've all seen, the other races are free to practice their own belief systems. And now I'm trying to find the particular lore thread where a dev directly commented that it's okay to not believe in their religion as long as you don't openly condemn it. I actually think the Dominion started the violence first. The Decree didn't explicitly state to treat the Lowborn like dirt, but the Highborn did feel the need to get violent over it. That being said, the Dominion did have the right to pursue the Exiles because they decided to start a war over this. The Exiles stole warships and continued fighting back. Even if the Dominion left them alone after the initial rebellion, I don't think they would have been satisfied unless they took over the Empire. Edited January 14, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- Edited January 14, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- I think his posts make a great deal of sense--if the goal of posting is to provoke a response more than the goal is to provoke thought. And in what is surely not a coincidence, he keeps declaring how pleased he is that this thread is such a mess and counting the number of pages we're up to. | |} ---- Which is why I said I saw the actions as more of cultural persecution instead of religious. I'm not particularly mad about Churches being built, but I feel like they should have allowed some of the Houses to stay. Maybe they did, but my source isn't clear on this. I don't view Chronicle Houses as a particular threat to the Dominion Empire, and I think accepting the Viiglant Decree while also taking steps to preserve (or at least leave alone) some of the Chronicle Houses would have been a better move. I agree with you that the wording was very vague. I had a lot of trouble deciding on a stance for this, but here's the part that tipped the scales (ever so slightly): Maybe this was before the protests officially began, but it seems like the Highborn were the instigators in the events that lead to the protests. Maybe the government cracked down on this violence, but it's not obvious if it was even bought up. I also acknowledge that the protests did get violent, but they don't say which side started the violence first. Just as easily as the protesters could have turned to violence, the military could have also tried to resolve the situation violently as well before that became the official response. I like to think that the protesters would have to react violently first, but this isn't always the case. I actually wish they would elaborate on the events leading up to the Rebellion, because I feel it's tough to make a call on who was violent first during the protests. I can easily believe things one way or the other, it's just that one sentence makes me slightly in more favor of the Dominion starting it. Edited January 14, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- |} From Galactic Archives Section C "Chronicler" - Long before the birth of the Dominion, the humans of Cassus took great pride in keeping and maintaining the history of their people via the chroniclers - storytellers who preserved history of humanity in both oral and written histories. So important were these traditions that the destruction of the Chronicler Houses - which were replaced with temples of the Vigilant Church - caused many humans to fight back rather than allow their traditions and their past to be swallowed up by the new religion. Due to social unjustice and wrongful treatments of Low class citizens had already been causing social unrest which culminated into protests and clashes between the two classes, ultimately the Luminai High class massacred Low Class and caused the civil war. (See British high society fiction and real, American treatment of slaves both black and chinese to the French/American revolution war for references). Instead of allowing both sides to retain their identity, the Luminai essentially forced their religion and social status onto those who were classified as "Low Class". This can be referenced to the old days of Christianity when they came tearing down various ritual sites and built churches on top of them. This also can clearly be seen in Japan, when the christians once came and tried to convert the Japanese..It did not end well. On top of who started first.. Brightlands rebellion where the wage protests sentence was taken states that a massacre happened at Toria Square. Considering Brightlands action upon acting against his own superiors, its quite clear the Lower class citizens were the ones who were massacred, with the newly established higher class society already taking upon it themselves to rub their blood inheritance into those who were not connected the Luminai... Its clear that it was the High class started it, and things escalated as usual to the point of a civil war and rebellion. whole lot of fixing ow Edited January 14, 2016 by Peacekitty | |} ---- I see the piece about getting physical with the lowborn as bullying more-so than anything seriously violent (ala. Gangs of New York with the English > Irish). But yea, the sources are vague and we could really use some clarity either way. I think both sides were wrong to a degree for sure, but which was worse is hard to see. The Dominion definitely should have considered the zero tolerance policy and their violent crackdowns, and Brightland should definitely have considered other options than massacring innocent people. The Dominion didn't see much use for the Chronicler houses with their new Eldan Gods... I don't think they stopped anyone from celebrating old rituals or keeping Chronicled history, but just like every new religion replaces the vestiges of the old, the VC replaced the "old ways". This happened when Greeks invaded other lands, when the Romans did, when the Muslims did, when the Christians did, etc. etc. etc. It's easy to forget that even the low born (lesser class) was extremely well off in the Dominion, with education and healthcare for all through the VC, and focusing just on the wage / labour / social inequality. There are pro's and cons to this just as there are for all things. Anyway, if nothing it's an interesting historical context for the game. Edited January 14, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- The Domesticated Veggies are also well-taken care of with most of the races that consume them, but they are still enslaved and harvested despite this treatment. Maybe the sentient, Domesticated Veggies came together and decided that this behavior was okay. I would accept that conclusion, but it would still leave a bad taste in my mouth. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that well-treated slaves are still slaves. I don't think the Lowborn during this period were literal slaves, but it's obvious that they were treated poorly. So I don't blame them for fighting against social injustice. I would like to note that while I think the Lowborn were treated poorly in the past, I also think they have gotten better about it since then. They still have upward mobility obstacles, but I get a very clear message that mistreating them is not okay in the game itself. Some Highborn might not have nice things to say about them, but they will be punished the moment they put words into actions. Edited January 14, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- | |} ---- Don't forget the Lopp, they also cultivate Veggies and one of them was also the quest giver for one of the most evil quests in the game. Marshall Yatish orders you to burn Falkrin nests (which carry their eggs) in retaliation for the attacks on Lopp Caravans in Malgrave. Interesting thing to note about Aurin, their royalty system is also bloodline based like the Dominion. Queen Myala Everstar is part of the royal Everstar line. So it's possible to have such a system and for society to remain fairly good, since most people agree that the Aurin are the nicest playable race in the game. I wish I could find the lore entry, but I remember reading about how her line was unbroken for centuries. Avra Darkos is also of noble blood. Durek Stonebreaker is the son of the High Chieftain (I'm hoping I get this title right). Not sure if Granok ruling system is also bloodline based, but I can't help but feel that his connections made it easier for him to rise to power. He has very much proven himself capable even in the absence of a royal bloodline. | |} ---- This isn't a lack of pondering lore, it's outright twisting events to fit their narrative, making crap up, ignoring my previous points, and adding stuff that makes absolutely no sense in an attempt to "debate". I have very little tolerance for that kind of garbage, and if they're going to do that, then I WILL not be as nice in response. Be happy I decided to tone it down as much as I have. If you don't like my tone, feel free to slap me ignore. I don't give a shit. Edited January 15, 2016 by Kintallo | |} ---- I'm not sure the treatment of the highborn is better now. It seems to be a strong possibility that it may be worse now that we're on nexus. While the beginning of the rebellion certainly could have been one large oppressive state victimizing the lowborn, (Which we see from the Exiles POV) alternatively, it could have just as easily played by rabble-rousers inciting the lowborn to attack innocent wealthier citizens in an "us or them" mentality. Of course, none of this negates the bias and corruption that is sure to find it's way into any societal structure. But if we let go of the simpler assumption that there must have been one side who were good guys and one side who were bad guys, thinking realistically, there would have certainly been villains on both ends. And as depicted in the movie, Gangs of New York, where the RL Draft riots were met with military action, it may have been the governments only real yet regrettable option. (Which we see is the Dominions POV). Which would explain why the dissenters were seen as terrorists. edit: quote clean up. Edited January 15, 2016 by Bytek | |} ---- |} If I remember correctly from Closed beta the Luminai girl was actually extremely naive and never let outside until now due to the Imperial decree of Nexus being the new capital world of Dominion. The reason for her shut in was because the Luminai were considered sacred next to the Emperor and thus were rarely seen outside of the public. Now that Nexus is found, the Luminai are now starting stepping out to regain their legacy and taking hold of key important political positions from strongest inheritence to lowest. again all memories from CB so the information for me is way outdated. Aurin are not gender inequal, they have simply been Matriarchal since their evolution on Arboria. The militant hierarchy of the Granoks are simply because Granoks ARE mercenaries. After the war on Gnox, Durek and his group of rebels formed a company of mercenaries and lived their lives as mercenaries until they were newly reformed as FCON or Free Companies of Nexus, the official military of the Exiles. Since most of the brawns of Exiles were Granoks, they simply kept their rank in their transfer from mercenaries to soldiers however FCON still retains its mercenary business so long as its not Dominion asking. The real hierarchy of the Granoks are yet to be revealed as of yet. As for Veggies - No Queen nor Matria abuse their weave connection to exploit any life.. However there are numerous romance novels and "Treerotica" of Matrias's forbidden love with their Wisdom trees. Don't ask. | |} ---- Thank you so much for these sources! I don't use reddit that often so I miss a lot of these threads, but this certainly clarifies the situation for me! Though now I don't look forward to reading these threads because they are super long . . . Edited January 15, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- Edited January 15, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- You may be right. That things have improved in relation to what they used to be. I think a better way to put what I was saying is that while there were abuses, and corruption, things may not have been all that bad. e.g.: The Lowborn weren't regulatory ground into the dirt by an oppressive state as an staus quo. So, like there are certain abuses today in western nations on specific peoples, it may not have been the actual policies. kind of more "loophole" than "policy". Which, if we think about it, would actually have left room for improvements the way we see happen in RL. This line seems to support the possibility. -"On Cassus, where the seat of government for the Dominion rested for centuries, the lowborn were very well off, and the split was more about class and associations. There are/were definitely prejudices from both groups about the other, some fair, some not. | |} ---- I've been immersing myself in the reddit threads Bytek supplied, and I managed to find a few Dev responses on this. I don't think the Aurin males are treated particularly bad or anything, but they aren't allowed to rule directly thanks to gender roles. But as we've seen with Arwick Redleaf, they can still hold power in Aurin society. I've been having a blast reading all the lore Bytek gave me and I just happened to come across these. One of the things I like about the Aurin is their matriarchal society. Edited January 15, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- The males are essentially the Aurin's version of the Lowborn. They can't lead, but can do pretty much everything else, and when the Matrias want them, they get to have them (no complaining though!!! Unkindness is a crime in Aurin culture ;) ) I do really like the diversity of social and cultural contexts in the game. I appreciate the swapped sexual dimorphism with the Aurin, and the matriarchial society just as I like the Luminai and the game of thrones deal in the Dominion. But we can enjoy them very much and still identify and discuss the inequity and negative aspects in these fictional social systems. The Aurin Matriarchy is interesting, but from a male aurin's POV i'm sure it would be just as discouraging as being a lowborn in Cassus. Sure, you can work your way up to be on the Emperor's / Queens personal council (like Toric Antevian did, and Arwick Redleaf did) but you can never be emperor / matria... I mean, just looking at Arwick, he's a skilled warrior, brave fighter, and cunning tactician... but none of that is as important in Aurin Culture as the fact that he was picked to boink the queen. Thats why he isn't "high advisor Redleaf" or "General Redleaf" ... he's "first consort Redleaf".. Edited January 15, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- The lore doesn't state either side. - The Luminai are purposeful though. The Eldans bred the Luminai specifically to control the Humans through worship of the Luminai and build a Empire controlled by the Eldan who feared the humans could one day rival them and thus wanted to eliminate that probablity (Perhaps due to the Genesis Prime project or otherwise). The Luminai would then be replaced by the creation of Genesis Prime. - Exiles are a collective accord of races who chose Exile by choice or forced, and because of it there is no central command or a collective social structure. The Aurin aren't a subset of their races.. It is for most part their entire civilization who became refugees because the Dominion quickly and simply labelled them as traitors. Only a handful of Aurin remain on the planet because they are tasked with protecting the Mother tree, in which the Queen is still connected to. The Mordesh aren't a subest of their race, It is what is left of their race after Victor's accident nearly wiped out the entirety of the Mordesh. Every race is doing their own thing while mutually helping each other in their goal of making Nexus a home. Of course Granoks don't need to be Mercenaries, some of them actually left their jobs as Mercenaries and took up other jobs available to them. But that is the choice they took, and live by now.. It is the same with all Exiles, they all made a choice and are making choices specific to them in order to continue on while mutually sharing and working with other Exiled races. - The 3 matrias you listed actually do not abuse their weave connection, they are simply the leaders of the group leading the Aurin. | |} ---- I don't have all the information, but I'll try to explain the best I can. The Queen is like the top Matria, and Matrias aren't allowed to marry. I can't remember why exactly, but I think it has to do with them belonging to the whole community. While the position of Matria is determined by skill and not bloodline (source), the position of Queen seems a different story. I'm under the impression that position is a combination of bloodline and who has the strongest connect to the Mother Tree. Interesting to note that I don't think it started off bloodline based, but as time went on, it might have become a trend since (source). Wrong! It's male Mechari. Have you seen Agent Lex? ~swoon~ There is actually some Exile lore in-game that I don't have access to at the moment that also explains the position of Consorts. While it is confirmed that Arwick and Myala are lovers, this isn't the case for all Consorts. Consorts tend to be chosen for their advising abilities and can also take on leader leadership abilities on behalf of their Matria. This isn't confirmed (more of a gut feeling) that Matrias are allowed to have relationships with non-Consorts as well. I also like to think that Consorts get a choice in accepting their position, but I only remember seeing a quest about how an Aurin becomes a Matria. First example is available to both Dominion and Exiles, though I can't remember if anyone in that group is a Matria. It's not unreasonable to think that there could be one because there are elementals working with them. Second example also can't confirm the presence of a Matria. They are actually using a Terraformer which changes the environment by breaking down (killing) the current environment to build the new one. Could you also elaborate on the third example? All I remember was the plague and those Aurin near the Buzzbing area. I actually think (can't confirm) that he was picked for all those talents to become the First Consort. Sure he's also in a relationship, but I think he's more than a boytoy to the Queen. His opinions were't taken into consideration for pretty much all the things that lead to the Ravaging of Arboria though, but I think he is still fairly powerful in Aurin society. There are Aurin in-game who pretty much agree with him (at least the part about leaving Arboria). | |} ---- Edited January 15, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ----